Paul Nolan, Author at The Ring Finders

2 Rings Lost in Minnesota Lake One Recovered.

  • from Chisago City (Minnesota, United States)
Happily reunited

Back where it belongs

I received a call from a party that mentioned that he and his wife had taken their rings off to not loose them when they were going into a lake swimming.  The rings were put into the pocket of a swim suit.  Later after coming out of the water both, his and her rings were missing. These folk where in Minnesota staying at a vacation rental on a lake about 65 miles north of St. Paul. They went home back to Milwaukee totally heartbroken. They had no idea how to find the rings and contemplated buying a metal detector and driving back to find the rings. Following doing some research they came across the ring finders web site and found my name. They called and were quite surprised that there was people that look for lost rings on the internet.  They were even more surprised to find someone that could go up and look for the rings and they did not have to go back to Minnesota to recover their rings.

There was another group on the property and we had to wait.until they left before searching. But eventually the property was vacated and I went in and searched for the rings. It took about 3 hours and many signals that you find in lakes. Bottle caps, fishing lures and weights, old beer cans and old bait cans. But I finally got a hit that was strong and clean. I knew it was a ring before scooping it up. Yes, it was his ring. I found one of the two missing rings.  I continued to search really hitting the area that I found the one hoping that they fell out together. But no luck. So I finished up out in the water and swept the yard and again came up empty.  While it was not the perfect outcome, I can always go back and try again and see if I can get lucky one more time.  Congratulations  on getting 1 of 2 back.

Recovered Ring

One Recovered Ring

Lost Ring Recovered in North Dakota.

  • from Chisago City (Minnesota, United States)

On Wednesday, July 17, I received a text wanting to know if I traveled to a very distant location. I told them that I didn’t know for sure, I would have to look on a map. This was a request from a fellow coworker of a family member. So, I told them that I would do it. I took off and made it to the location by 7:00 PM. my concern was to have enough daylight to make things a little easier.

They had told me that the caller’s husband had been concerned about losing his ring, so he took it off and put it in a compartment on his jet ski.  As you know that non-moving jet skis have a little stability issue and was pushing off from a dock and the jet ski rolled over. The compartment that held the ring popped open and the ring fell out. While it was a terrible incident, it was a blessing that it happened in a location that was only in 3 1/2 feet of water.

I went into the water at the location described and as you can imagine a boat launch that has been in operation for many, many years had debris from those years. A bottle cap or pull-tabs here and there, fishing weights, boat trailer parts and the many other items that you would think would be associated with well used boat launch. It was a much more difficult hunt then what I was thinking. The things that were going right were that the location was a small area, and the water was shallow in that location. There was small and medium size cobble or round rocks on the bottom that was making scooping a signal very difficult. What I was thinking was going to be a 30-40 minute turned into a 2-hour recovery.

I had brought 2 detectors with me, a Minelab Equinox 900 with a 10-inch coil, and a Garrett AT Pro with a small D coil. After hunting for an hour and a half, I decided to switch over to the AT Pro to help discriminate the different targets.  This move was my saving grace. It allowed me much more control over the targets and pinpointing those targets was key.   After about another 30 minutes I found the ring. What a beautiful sight it was to see it in my scoop.  A white gold men’s wedding band, just like described.

Another Happy ending.

Turns out – I guess I do go out that far after all, who knew….

Happy reunion

I had to sneak into one photo.

OK it was a 5  1/2 hour drive one way.

I also have a God daughter that lived along the route, and I could make nervous that I was checking on her.

Life is so good.

 

 

 

 

Missing Ring Recovered – Reposted from Facebook page.

  • from Chisago City (Minnesota, United States)
 THE MISSING FLOTILLA RING HAS BEEN RECOVERED!!! 💍💍💍
Prayers have been answered!
It’s been a very long and emotional week. A kind samaritan loaned me her metal detector and after hours of searching with no luck, I hit the internet for help. I was able to find a website called The Ring Finders. Feeling apprehensive, but desperate about it, I sent a text to a couple specialists in Minnesota. Within moments, Paul texted me back saying he was loading up and would be to Mille Lacs within 2 hours.
I got him familiarized with the area and on day one he spent 4 hours looking. No luck. He was such an incredible, positive human that he reassured me, “Don’t worry! It hasn’t gone anywhere! It’s here.”
Day 2 he came up again, we both searched for hours, coming up empty handed. He was still positive – “don’t worry, we will find it!”.
Day 3 my husband and I took our pontoon out to the exact spot we were at during Flotilla – about 45 feet from what the GPS coordinates said on my Navionics App and where we were looking (sorry fisherman, GPS lies!). Paul was kind enough to loan us a metal detector until he came back out, so we searched for another few hours. No luck, except for a couple cigar stickers from our group – we knew we were close! I text Paul that night to tell him our findings, explaining we were off by about 45 feet, but I could help get him out to our spot when he came up again.
Day 4, Paul texts me, “are you going to be around today?”, of course, I was ready to head out and look again for the ring. Being the positive person he is, he said “are you ready to hear what a ring sounds like”. Of course! Let’s find some gold! Moments later he texts a photo of my ring in his hand!!!!
The cheering squad on the beach is going wild (you know who you are❤️). I’m going crazy, sprinting through the shallows to hug this amazing person who has found my missing ring!
I cannot thank Paul from Ring Finders enough, he is a true angel on Earth!!! If you have anything missing in this lake PLEASE CALL HIM!!!!! His tenacity, dedication and positivity is commendable. TOP NOTCH!!!
To everyone that helped during Flotilla that afternoon THANK YOU. What a call to action and I am so grateful you took time to help. To everyone else that offered advise and suggestions on my previous post, thank you also.
God is good!
 

Ring recovered – in Wyoming Minnesota

  • from Chisago City (Minnesota, United States)

So last week I received a call from a wonderful couple that had lost a wedding ring in the leaves in there back yard. This call was from a local couple about 6 miles away.  This was a treat for me because it had been a while since I have had a call that was just down the road. I know from what I was told that she really cared about her ring.  She was very conscientious about losing the ring so to be safe she removed it and placed it in her pocket.  She had done a little work in a flower garden the corner of the house and when she finished, she felt the ring in her pocket.  She also had her young son out running around in back with her in the back yard. Part of playing around they formed a big pile of leaves started to bury one another in the pile of leaves.  Following playing in the leaves her husband cleaned up the back yard raking and hauling the leaves down to a compost pile further down in the back yard. She had felt for the ring and her heart sank. It was gone. They spent several hours scouring the back yard and leaf pile looking for the ring and nothing was found.

You just know that feeling of something near and dear to your heart and it’s gone. She did a search online for Ringfinders.com and found Paul Nolan a local recovery specialist and texted him.  Somehow the text was missed and the following morning her husband gave Paul a call. He asked if I had received the text that hos wife had sent, “ No”.  So he asked if it would be possible to come out and see if we could find the ring.  About an hour later I pulled into the driveway.  They gave me a quick tour of what had happened. So I grabbed my detector and started a quick preliminary search. My primary search area was going to be the leaf pile in the back.  Within a minute of reaching the pile location I received a great signal.  I tried to carefully move some of the leaves, and it was hiding well.  I had left my pin-pointer in the car so I went back to retrieve that.  I also brought a small battery-operated blower that I grabbed. Once back at the pile I found the location with the pin pointer and put the blower on low and blew the leaves away from a small one foot circle, and there it was down between some rocks.  So I grabbed my equipment and started to hall it back up to the car. As I was heading up she came out on the deck and I asked her if she would like to come grab the ring? What you found the ring? In total disbelief.  Come on down. Her husband soon joined her and I took them down to the location where I had blowen the leaves away and they started looking after about 15 seconds she spotted it in the rocks.  She was ecstatic.    The following pictures are the ring back where it belonged and another photo of the ring.

It was really nice having a call close to home, and one that went as well as could possibly could. What a treat it was. I wish they all would go so well.  Congratulations on getting the ring back.  I am so happy for the both of you.

Once lost – now is found.

Ring recovered from Lake Vermillion Minnesota

  • from Chisago City (Minnesota, United States)

By Paul Nolan  Ringfinders

I received a call about a missing ring lost in a lake in Northern Minnesota – Lake Vermillion.  They told me that it was missing in a swimming area and that it came off while playing with some kids in the water.  I said, I would be happy to go up and search for the ring.  We were unable to make schedules work for a couple of weeks. It was 200 miles North from where I was at – to the boat launch.  Then a 10-minute ride by boat out to an island where the cabin was.

The weather was brisk, with overcast sky’s and pretty good chop on the water. A light rain on and off.   Once in the water it though it was warmer than out on the dock. I had brought a load of gear with to cover many obstacles I could face. The cabin owner told me that with poor weather most people fishing fish out in front of their place because the island protects them from the wind.  But on this particular day was not like the normal bad weather days – in the weather was coming out of the south and the normally calm waters were anything but calm.

I concentrated towards the end of the dock in the search. From the information I had received the probability was highest out there.  The water depth at the end of the dock was about 5 ½ feet. I had a snorkel and goggles and would dive down searching.  I was getting a couple of good sounding targets, but the depth kept me from locating and digging them. Also, the waves on the water was not only on the surface it was under water as well and causing all kinds of issue as well.  I did not have enough weights to safely hold me down under water while also allowing me the ability to come up for air regularly which didn’t help matters any.  The homeowner thought about it and brought me out an 8 lb maul, and 4 large horseshoes. That was working, but the combination of waves, currents, lack of air really was more than what I was prepared for. So eventually I gave up out in the deep water and did a primary search of the rest of the beach.  After about 2 – 3 hours of searching we gave up.  I told them I would come back another time.  Northern Minnesota’s weather gets cooler sooner than the lower 2/3 of the state where I come from. I was just not able to get back up again during the 2021 season.

In the spring of 2022, we made arrangements to meet again. This time the weather was more favorable, and the lake was calmer. The difference was the lake was about 1-foot higher waterline then the previous year. Meaning the water at the end of the dock was not over my head.  I brought a battery-operated air compressor with 50’ of hose and a dive regulator that allowed me to go under and search the targets that I had located the previous year. I was finding many different items nails, washers, but no ring.  After about 2 hours of searching the end of the dock, I decided to search the rest of the swimming area.  I spent another hour and a half and now was really beginning to question if I was going to locate the ring.

I know how much rings mean to people, and I always want to give it 110%.  So, making a more methodical search I got a hit on a tone that was in the range that I was looking for, and shallow.  I had to go grab my mask and snorkel off the end of the dock and when I got back and went under – there it was a bright ring laying between two rocks in about 3 – 4 feet of water and about 30’ from shore.  I was getting within 15 -20 minutes of calling the entire area searched when I ran across it. What a feeling.  The cabin owner had stopped out and we had talked 10 minutes earlier and you could kind of tell that he was thinking it was lost. So after finding it, I brought it up to the cabin. When I met him at the back door, I’m sure he was thinking that well we gave it a good try, then I showed him the ring on my little finger. He was elated, “You Found it” The surprise on his face was priceless and he was not the owner of the ring. I let him pass on the news to his daughter and her husband.  They were also so happy.  It was their 10th  anniversary within 2 weeks, and they would be getting the ring back just in time.  While I was not able to see them get the ring, I received the following pictures.

Happy Couple

Happy to have ring back

 

Ring back intime for anniversary

Ring placed back where it belongs

Wedding Ring Found in Lake Mille Lacs in Wahkon Minnesota

  • from Chisago City (Minnesota, United States)

I received a call looking for someone that could come up and locate a missing ring believed to be in a lake in about 3-4 feet of water.  The individual I was talking to was the former Chief of Police of a near by city before moving up to Northern Minnesota.  We planned on a time on a Saturday for me to come up and give it a good search.

Upon reaching the beautiful home on Lake Mille Lacs, I was greeted by the homeowner waiting for me out in his driveway. It was a beautiful sunny day with few clouds. I’m guessing it was about 85 degrees, with a slight wind. Another perfect day for ring recovery work. The homeowner Mike had a John Deere Gaiter waiting for me to toss all of my stuff into and took me down to the lake.  He explained that he was out moving a couple of bricks around  15’ or so from the end of the dock. Later that evening he and his wife noticed his ring was missing.  So putting everything together – figured it was out in the lake where he was working.  It had been a couple of days since it was lost and he had some fiberglass stakes marking the lake in the area where he had been.

So I dawned my gear and headed out first doing a Primary Search followed up with a secondary more methodical search.  I was finding a bunch of old tops to old beer cans form years gone by. The ones that used the old bottle opener with the pointed end to open the beer cans. The signal that these can tops would make was very similar signal to that of rings. The biggest difference was that they were coming in a little deeper than what I was looking for giving me a little ability to rule out some without digging them. But this is always a little dangerous because you could rule out something that you should not have.

I don’t recall but I remember the sun beating down on the back of my neck and my arm getting a little tire because swinging the metal detector in water takes a little more effort than air swinging.  I must have been out looking for 5-6 hours and came up empty at the end of the day.

I decided to head out and come back in the morning and give the yard and other possible locations a search. These locations seemed much less likely from what we were thinking, but because we were unsuccessful in the water, we had to expand the search area.  Mike had a well-manicured lawn with a very thick root system. This would make it very hard for a ring to get pushed down very far. My concern was that he had mowed the lawn a coupe of times and if the mower had hit it just right it could have launched it to places unknown. So we were hoping that it was run over by a wheel pushing it down into the lawn. After a search of the yard, shrubs, around the garage, and driveway – Nothing. So it was back to the water again.

By the end of the day we had accumulated a box full of parts to metal beer cans and no ring.  It was so frustrating to come up empty for a second day. You could tell that this was also hard on Mike and his wife, they had been married for 40+ years and the ring was with them for all of it. I told them that when they pulled the dock out for winter I would come back up again and give it another search without the dock and boat lift in the way.

So when that time came, I was excited to go back up and give it another try. I had one location that I had a question in the back of my head that I may have had good signal and really wanted to clear one more time. This is wader time with water temperatures running around 50 degrees. The water was glass calm, clear, and down about a foot from the level earlier in the season. I went in and had in my mind clearing that location that I had suspected as being one location I needed to clear. So I went out working the location of the dock working the area slow and methodical. When I made it out towards the location, I was getting close to I got a hit. A little deeper than what I would have liked but a good signal. I dug down and pulled up my scoop and looked inside and there it was another beer can top that I missed on the earlier searches. I kept going and I got another hit in the area that I was looking to clear. It was 3 pieces of metal all right next to one another. 2 were deeper around 4 inches and one was shallower about 2 inches but being masked by the other deeper metal targets.  The metal detector was having a hard time picking up the smaller target. Again I scooped it and missing it, but moved it. Rechecked the location and scooped again and had whatever it was. A look inside the scoop and their it was. The ring I had been searching for was in the bottom of my scoop. Mike was at his normal perch overlooking the lake, how do you let him know?  I flipped him a thumbs up, but just walked back in to him and showed him the scoop.  I had some rocks also in the bottom of the scoop that blocked his view. I shook it a little and he caught a glimpse of it… You found it… My ring.. I can’t believe you found it. It wasn’t long and we were heading back to the house to share the good news. Smiles all around. Pictures, text messages and emails to family members that the ring was recovered. It was great to be a part of the recovery.

  

Lost ring recovered from the Big Lake They Call Gitche Gumee

  • from Chisago City (Minnesota, United States)

I received a call from another Ring Finder from Southeastern Wisconsin (Paul Humphrey) about a party that had lost a ring up in Lake Superior and was wondering if I would be able to go up and assist a couple with finding their ring.  Paul was about 4-5 hours away and thought I would be closer.  He said that he would go if I was unable to make it. Superior Wisconsin is east of Duluth Minnesota by about 5 miles. Its about 2 ½ hours North of the Twin cities.  I told him that indeed I would be able to help them out, and that they could get ahold of me to set up a time that would work.  A short time later I received a call from Grace stating that her husband was in the lake at Wisconsin Point playing with their Labrador and when he got out, he noticed that his ring was missing.  He was not very far out in the lake but was not sure where he lost it. Wisconsin Point has several beautiful sandy beaches and has some sand bars that that go out about 250’ only about 3-4’ deep.  Grace sent me overhead photos with the location somewhat marked out.

I went up on a weekday while they were at work. I had a pretty good idea from talking to them and the photos where they were at. One thing that was said was they were on a sand bar. So when I got up I called them and let them know I was up looking for the ring. I was unable to reach either one of them but did leave messages for them.  So I started working the beach and the edge of the lake with my metal detector.  I was working a long narrow stretch about 400’ long.  I noticed a sand bar and recalled something said about that, so I decided to work out a couple hundred feet. All places that would be a great place to play with a dog.  I spent around 5 hours working the sand bar.  Beautiful weather, sunny skies, surf was calm, and very few people to work around. Near the end of the day a gentleman walked up and introduced himself as the person that had lost the ring. He said that I was 250’ to far east.  So I moved over and started working the area that he said he was in.  A storm front moved in and was starting to lightning about 15 minutes after moving to the new location.  We were forced to pull out for safety and would have to come back another time.

About a week or two later I went back up and was looking in the area that was pointed out to me.  I started my day working the beach where they had set up for the afternoon.  I just wanted to rule out the sandy beach before going into the water.  It would not take long, and I could be reasonably certain that that area was cleared.  While searching the beach what appeared to be a mother, daughter and a toddler were out on the beach in the area around where I was searching. The toddler was so cute and was mesmerized by my swinging the detector back and forth. She would follow me just to see what I was doing.  It was added to the enjoyment of the search.  I briefly spoke to the adults about what I was doing and that I was on a mission rather than just scavenging looking for lost items.

After that I went back out into the water, another beautiful day. Surf was calm and a beautiful day to be out searching. I was working a 100’ wide area going back and forth along the beach working my way out further into the water. The beach had a drop off about 15’ out that dropped down about 2 feet.  It was difficult to cover the area that had the slope being sand. I worked it from the top side and then the bottom side.  I found a cell phone and some miscellaneous junk items.  After about hour I was out about 35 feet and I picked up a signal. It was not a signal that I was thinking would be the ring but scooped it up. I could not believe it, it was the ring.  A beautiful rose gold ring with black diamonds just as they described.  I kind of let out a little YES after I found it and the folks on the beach were excited that I had recovered it.  They came over and seen the ring and where amazed at being able to find that small ring in such a large body of water.

Being 2 hours north of home I called and again was unable to get ahold of Grace and left her a message I was hoping I could meet up with her to give the ring back.  She called me back about 10 minutes later.  “ Hey Grace are you working today? I have something that I would like to get back to you”– No she said she was taking her dog to the vet. But you could tell her excitement. She said she was thinking of going out and buying a new ring later that day. I told her I would meet up with her at her vets office and return the ring.  In the moment I forgot to get photos of the ring being returned to her but they did send back one of the ring back where it belonged.  I did capture a couple of photos on the beach.

What another wonderful recovery. It never gets old helping people recover lost items.

 

    

Lost Ring Recovered in Northern Minnesota.

  • from Chisago City (Minnesota, United States)

On July 9th, 2021 I received a text message from a person that had lost a ring on a beach and wanted to know if I could come and locate it for her.  She told me it was up in Northern Minnesota at her Parents cabin. I could tell that she was somewhat panicked by the loss of a very sentimental ring.  I tried to reassure her that It’s not going anywhere, and I would love to come and find it for her.  She said they were going to give it another look in the morning and she would get back to me.  The next day I received another text that she could not find it and I was given the address of where they were at.  After looking up the address on Google maps I headed North.  It was about 180 miles from where I was at and I loved every minute of the drive.  What a beautiful day for a drive up north.  I asked if it was ok if I brought my dog with for the ride and I was told by all means bring the dog.

About 3 hours later I arrived and was met by her mother and several yellow labs and a golden retriever in the driveway. My dog is a yellow lab as well and boy did those dogs hit it off.  Running and playing. It was nice because my dog doesn’t get a chance very often to run with dogs her own size much.  Before you know it they were in the water have a blast.  I was shown the beach where the ring was lost and it was about a 30’ x 40’area.  The ring was lost tossing a toy to one of the dogs. So a real direction was not known. It could have taken off in any direction, and maybe even backwards into the lake. I started to looking in the sand for the ring.  On my 3rd pass back and forth I got a strong hit for something metallic just under the sand. I brought my sand scoop with to help make things easier. I took a couple of scoops and missed whatever it was.  Then I had it in my scoop. A beautiful gold ring.  It took less then 5 minutes to locate it.  While the party that lost the ring was not around during the hunt she was quickly notified about the recovery and you just knew that everything was going to be OK. It was a honor going up and helping put the pieces of life back in order for one more person.  To top it off, my dog was able to have a few playmates for a short time and we were back on the road.  It was so nice meeting such a wonderful family, perfect summer day, and an absolute beautiful scenic drive to boot.  It doesn’t get much better then tha

 

t.

Lost Ring found in St. Francis, Minnesota

  • from Chisago City (Minnesota, United States)

Ring with shinny rim.

Dad with both rings and both Kids.

Following being contacted I went out to St. Francis MN. to help a young couple recover a lost wedding ring in tall marsh grass.  Doing some fall cleanup pulling weeds and cutting grass. It was during dumping the clippings in the into the compost pile that he noticed his ring was missing.  His ring fit a little loose and wanted to get to get it resized. After loosing the ring, not thinking it could be found he purchased a new smaller ring.  Meanwhile his wife contacted me and I mentioned that I could come out yet that night. I mentioned that I really don’t need much light, the detector will work just fine in the dark.  I have a headlight that is very bright that I use while working at night.  The area that the ring was last known was pointed out and the new identical ring was tested with the metal detector.  It took about 10-15 minutes to locate the ring. To tell you the truth the headlight played as much of a roll in locating the ring as the metal detector did.  I caught a good tone and the rim of the ring sparkled. I caught a glimmer at the same time the tone came over my headset.  It was nestled down under some tall bent- over grass.   If I were out during the day light I don’t know that I would have spotted it as well as I did.  I think it would have been hidden in the shadows. It was so nice to find it so quickly.  After some long searches its nice to get a couple that are quick.

When I went back up to the house I told them that the grass was a lot longer than I had anticipated. I could see his shoulders drop, you could see the disappointment. I then put my hand out with the ring and you could again see a complete turn of excitement and jubilation.  You found it… It never gets old showing the found rings. With his young kids in his arms he slipped it on a finger for a quick photo.  A story that will be able to be told with a happy ending.

 

Lost Ring Recovered Western Wisconsin.

  • from Chisago City (Minnesota, United States)

I received an email wondering if I could go up to a western Wisconsin lake and see if I could recover a lost ring. It was about 14o miles away. Wanting to ensure a successful recovery on the first trip we waited until both could meet on site to confirm the location of where it was lost.  The water in the lake is getting very cold around 36 degrees F. so waders were going to have to be used.  I was told that the ring came off while uncovering a boat. The ring slipped off and went into the lake near the end of the dock in about 4 feet of water. The lake levels can be lowered for the winter by conservation officials and was down about a foot from summer levels. This putting the search area in around 3 -4 feet of water.   This was about the maximum depth  that I could go before water would come over the waders and my hand would be submerged holding on to the metal detector.  I also use an aluminum scoop to recover targets to prevent from having to get wet this time of year. The search area was about a 15′ x 10′ area. Several attempts were made at finding the ring by the owner and friends and neighbor. They tried snorkeling, raking and tried a metal detector with no luck. I have in the past had searchers looking for lost items using rakes end up moving the rings to a new location, which expands the search area.   I started out with my primary search. A primary search is an initial search in the area of the highest degree of likelihood. It is usually just seeing how many targets are out in the location and if anything just screams hear I am.  The lost ring was platinum with some diamonds.  So you look for somewhat shallow targets, anything deeper then 4″ is kind of ruled out.  The bottom of lakes if real sandy might get pushed down by searchers stepping on it but in this case there was a hardpan layer about 2″ below the bottom sand so it was going to be shallow. I did pick up several targets that were in the range of the ring but turned out to be pop tops/ pull tabs, bottle caps and other misc. junk targets. After searching for 15 – 20 minutes I got a hit on pretty good signal but not jumping out, I had set my scoop down on the dock which was about 6-8′ away. When hitting that target I did not want to take my eye off the target location but I needed to go grab the scoop. Its not hard to loose the target by waves pushing you or currents in rivers. I identified a small white pebble on the bottom that I could come back to. I grabbed the scoop and found the white stone. took a scoop and missed the target, took and second scoop and I had whatever it was in my scoop. BAM there it was… The ring,  what a great feeling seeing the ring in your scoop.  It never gets old.  Now to reunite the owner to the ring.  When I walked back up the hill to the cabin, I mentioned to owner that was standing out on the deck – “boy a lot of junk targets out there”. He said yes he was afraid of that. When I extended my hand out with the ring, it took him by surprise. You found it. You could just see the emotion run across his face. The ring had such deep sentimental value that when reunited you can feel that everything is back in it place and the relief that you are complete again.  It’s so great to see that relief happen right before your eyes.

Never gets old.