How to Find a Lost Gold Diamond Ring in Toyota Camry…Found in Winchester, Virginia
Brian Rudolph, Lost Item Recovery Specialist (Land, Water, Sand, Snow, Leaves, Houses & Vehicles) Will Find Your Lost Keepsake! Call ASAP (301) 466-8644!
A man named Adam called me and requested my help in recovering a lost 14 karat yellow gold 1.75 carat diamond family heirloom ring that his father had willed to him following his dad’s passing a year earlier. Six months after his father’s death, Adam and his friend were driving in his Toyota Camry after a night out on the Winchester, Virginia town. Adam was very upset because of some family dealings with someone who greatly mistreated him regarding a very private matter. It was so severe and hurtful that Adam allowed his friend to drive while he poured out his heart on the way back to his place.
At some point during that commute towards home, as Adam sat in the front passenger seat, he took two rings off of his finger. Both were family heirloom rings that he inherited from his father and in anger he threw them towards the dashboard. Thankfully, he was able to recover one of the rings when his friend pulled the 2017 Camry over to the side of the road. However, the more cherished 14 karat gold diamond ring was nowhere to be found. Adam and his friend searched everywhere for the missing jewel, but neither man was able to pull it from the vehicle. It made no sense to the friends for a chunky men’s ring to simply disappear like that into seemingly this air!
For the next six months, Adam kept looking for the lost heirloom as it was so meaningful to him knowing that it was one of the only remaining possessions from his late father. It meant the world to him and he could not figure out how this piece of gold could have been lost that easily in a confined environment like a car. There were only three possibilities to explain what had happened to the jewel. One, his friend had taken it (which Adam didn’t believe he did based on what Adam did to make certain that his friend at the time had nothing to do with the disappearance of the ring – I can’t elaborate), Two, when the guys were getting out of the vehicle on the side of the road to search for the two rings, one of the two pieces of gold fell out of the car from the lap of either Adam or his friend and then fell onto the concrete of the road, never to be discovered by either man on that dreadful night. Three, somehow the ring never left the vehicle and it somehow found a hiding place somewhere in a space that neither fellow had the ability to spot when attempting to recover the precious metal and stone from the Camry. Finally, four, the ring was later found in the vehicle by someone other than Adam and his friend – possibly a mechanic or detailer who stumbled across the sentimental keepsake while working on the car.
Adam didn’t give up the hunt for his dad’s special ring. He kept searching the car day after day, week after week and then month after month! The poor guy looked under the seats, under the dashboard, under and around the outer foot carpets, in and between the seats and the center console. Unfortunately, with all of Adam’s efforts to locate the ring, still nothing ever turned up and he was emotionally devastated over the whole ordeal.
Sadly, the loss of Adam’s family heirloom became the least of his problems. Six months after the ring went missing (two weeks before my client contacted me), Adam was involved in a very serious car accident involving another automobile that T-boned his vehicle causing irreparable damage to the Camry. Adam’s car was deemed a total loss. Once the Toyota was removed from the scene of the accident, it was taken to a Winchester, Virginia body shop where the insurance companies began to assess the damage and preceded to roll up their sleeves for the legal battle to come.
The poor owner of the destroyed vehicle had only two weeks to wrap up his six month investigation to find his missing ring. If his efforts would lead to no avail and the treasure was somehow still in the mangled piece of metal, the family jewel along with the trashed automobile would be sent to the boneyard and then eventually placed in the crusher once and for all!
It was at the end of that two week grace period that Adam looked online for help and found THE RING FINDERS, the elite international directory of metal detecting specialists who are experts in finding lost rings! When Adam searched the directory for the closest specialist to him, my contact information popped up. He immediately called me and we had a long conversation discussing not only his horrific story but also the many details regarding the ring itself. I was quite intrigued with Adam’s account and it got me excited to assist this poor fellow with my expertise in helping my client search for the lost ring inside the Camry.
A few days after we initially spoke on the phone, Adam and I planned out a day for me to travel the hour and a half trip to Winchester, Virginia where I would be given the opportunity to search Adam’s wrecked Camry. It was going to be a cold one outside but I was definitely up for the challenge to be out in the elements while searching for my client’s beloved ring. I had recently recovered another ring in a vehicle for a young lady in Alexandria, Virginia just about two months earlier. I couldn’t wait to try to add another story to my resume of successful in-vehicle searches and recoveries!
The entire drive to Winchester was absolutely breathtaking. The countryside was beautiful and I enjoyed talking with the locals as I stopped at a couple of country stores along the way to grab a snack or something to drink. I always love these fun adventures and most importantly I have such passion to try and help people like Adam recover such priceless sentimental treasures!
When I arrived at the Winchester auto body shop lot, Adam got out of his truck and we greeted one another. He then took me over to the destroyed 2017 Toyota Camry and began to show me what he had already searched inside that mass of mangled metal and plastic. The car was a real mess indeed. I must say that when he first showed me the automobile, I was shocked by what my eyes beheld. The dashboard was completely missing except for the basic metal frame that once held all of the compartments and pieces to the metal reinforcements. What remained in the vehicle looked like a mutilated slice of Swiss cheese! There were huge sections where a crowbar must had been used to pry open pieces of the dashboard frame along with many holes that were drilled all over the front of the cabin to allow for access. There was so much mutilation that in certain places you could see right through the firewall into the engine compartment because the gentleman had destroyed and or removed most of what once was the automobile’s dashboard! It was insane what I was looking at!
Next, my client took me around to the back of the car and there on the ground was the rest of the dashboard along with another key component that he had tucked away in his trunk so that the rain would not destroy what was left of the electronics. I had never seen anything like this before which said a lot because I myself used to manage several body shops way back in my younger years. I had seen a lot of crazy wrecks in my days, but nothing like what this guy did to the vehicle from the inside of the car! My client’s desperate mission was to dissect every square inch of the dashboard, hoping that he would find the ring somewhere in the vent system or some other spot where the piece of gold may had gotten trapped within a crevice or corner inside the dash.
This fellow had done so much cutting, drilling and demolition to the instrument panels and the rest of the dashboard frame that I honestly wasn’t sure what was left for me to search. There were so many holes and open areas that were now exposed to the human eye that I couldn’t even see where a ring could still be trapped or hiding in any of those places! It was truly unbelievable what I was seeing! This started to worry me because my options were already reduced by 70% as to where the ring might still have been hiding. I was kind of disappointed that I had fewer places to search and with everything that was taken out of the car or cut open for inspection, I thought that the odds of me finding the ring were already very slim since Adam had done so much removal work of potential obstacles while he was searching for endless hours, days, weeks and even months for his father’s ring.
Once Adam finished giving me the run down as to where he searched and what he had removed to get access to, I asked my client if he would be fine with me leading us in a prayer to the Lord, asking for divine favor in this search of ours. Adam was completely into the idea and so we prayed for God’s wisdom and provide me with the ability to find the lost ring if it was still in the vehicle. Then, I returned to my car to gather up all of the tools and gear that I needed to conduct this search. Adam had told me on the phone the other day that he actually rented a metal detector and had searched the dashboard for his missing ring. He believed that he came across what appeared to be a 14 karat gold piece of jewelry according to what the detector screen indicated. I sensitively and carefully shared with Adam that when there is a search that involves trying to recover an item inside a vehicle, one cannot use a metal detector to scan for the missing object. The reason for this is because there is so much metal that’s in a car that there is no way to effectively detect for precious metal. You cannot distinguish between one piece of metal and another. Furthermore, I explained to my client that gold is a nonferrous metal and there are endless pieces of nonferrous materials in a car. Therefore, the type of tools and gear that I brought over to the Camry for my inspection would not involve devices and machines that would detect for gold. I would have to use my headlamp and endoscope (which is a video camera snake intended to search narrow areas that the naked eye cannot see).
I began my search in the vehicle by first using the endoscope inside what remained of the dashboard. The whole procedure was fairly simple and quite brief in time because (as I indicated early) Adam had already disassembled and destroyed most of what was originally bolted to the firewall and frame of the Camry! Still, I made certain that the yellow gold and diamond heirloom was not trapped or wedged into any remaining piece of metal or plastic in all of those regions.
Next, I looked at all of the remaining components and dashboard compartments that Adam had removed and placed towards the back of the vehicle. I wanted to make sure that the ring did not end up somewhere in any of the large pieces of vehicle that he had removed prior to this search. Still, all of that checked out clean of any jewelry. It was then time to begin searching under the front seats, starting with the passenger side and then working my way over to the driver’s bucket type recliner.
As soon as I brought my gear over to the right passenger side of the vehicle, I placed my endoscope underneath the front area of the front passenger seat and studied every corner and crevice that was below. One must always have patience when it comes to searching and studying all of the possible places where a one inch or less piece of precious metal could possibly end up. After exhausting each and every angle and spot where my camera could be inserted for inspection under that seat, I was confident once again that Adam’s ring was not under the front passenger side seat. I checked the rails and it was not wedged along the sides, as well. When everything checked out under the front passenger seat, I decided to double check my work by heading to the back of the same front passenger seat and take a look again but this time from the rear side. With more disappointment, I still could not locate the ring.
The piece of jewelry that I was looking for was not dainty and thin like a woman’s diamond engagement ring. This was a chunky regular sized men’s ring that was definitely manufactured back in the 1960s or mid 1970s, so it would not be something that could easily hide. That’s why I was really getting concerned that my trip to Winchester might only end up serving one purpose and that would be to simply bring closure for my client.
At that point in the search, I had only two sections of the vehicle left to examine. First, I would check under the rear portion of the driver’s seat. Then secondly, to check out the front area under the driver’s seat. After that, there would be nothing left to search and my time in Winchester would come to its conclusion. I have been in situations like this before where I had pretty much exhausted all of the possibilities as to where the missing item might had ended up. It would all come down to the final minute to see if the precious jewel would be recovered or not. This search operation certainly looked like it was heading that direction!
The area around the driver’s seat was the very last place that I could investigate. Honestly speaking, I wasn’t thinking that there was much chance for me to pull the ring from the wreckage at that point in the game. Yet, I always try to give it my all right up to the end, even when the chips are down and it doesn’t look very bright on the other side of the search.
Once I made my way over to the rear section of the driver’s side seat, I began to take my endoscope and wielded it underneath the leather part, checking all of the hidden spaces where one would not be able to see with their own eyes. If a piece of jewelry was caught up in the rails or within the seat’s electronics that were bolted below, I would be able to identify it with the scope. I looked in the floor seat vent as well as underneath where the “wall to wall” floor and console carpets met up with one another and still there was nothing found (other than some broken glass, tons of miscellaneous nuts and bolts and pieces of scrap metal from the accident). There were also some personal possessions that ended up wedged between the carpet and the flooring underneath the driver side seat but there was absolutely no sign of Adam’s beloved treasure.
I spent a great deal of time in this environment because I knew that this was the last leg of my search and I did not want to make any mistakes or to leave any question as to whether or not I gave it my all in trying to recover this item. When I could not identify anything that resembled the gold ring, it was time to search the final location which was underneath the driver’s seat once more, but this time it needed to be examined from the front side. Why did I choose working in the rear section of the driver’s seat first? It was just simply my personal preference and nothing more as to why I chose that area over studying the front side of that same seat.
Again, I placed my endoscope underneath the seat from the front side and viewed my monitor screen as I scanned every square inch of that undetected area. Still, everything checked out negative of any signs of jewelry. I continued to spot little personal possessions and random coins that had made their way under the seat due to the great impact that took place when Adam was T-boned by the other car. Other little objects probably had ended up down there over time as things would naturally fall out of pockets while driving.
After completing that particular section of the car seat, there was nothing left for me to search. I ran out of any more options at that point…or did I? Just as I was about to wrap things up and begin to put my things away, I looked down at the driver side carpet where it met the door kick panel. I noticed that Adam’s Camry had its fuel door and trunk release levers fastened to the floor just to the left front area of the driver side seat. It was then that I came up with one more procedure to try out before officially calling it quits.
As I had mentioned earlier, two months prior to this vehicle search, I had found a lady’s platinum wedding band that had gone missing for over a year. I ended up looking in this same particular spot at the final minute of that Alexandria, Virginia search. The lady’s Subaru Outback’s fuel door release lever was located in the exact place as Adam’s Toyota Camry’s release levers. The odds that I would find this ring in the same location that I had found the other band was almost 100% improbable of repeating. However, I had nothing to lose at that point and until I fully exhausted every possible location to search, my investigation was not closed!
In thinking about all of the factors that played into the two very different in-vehicle searches, I found myself starting to doubt that even with that tiny possibility that I would find my client’s ring in the same location, it was too improbable to believe that there could be a “repeat performance” of the last in-vehicle success. Here’s why I thought this:
One, the two vehicles were quite different in their makes and models.
Two, the release mechanisms were somewhat similar in design but were quite different in other ways (I will highlight this fact later on).
Three, these were “back to back” in-vehicle searches. What was the likelihood that I would find Adam’s ring in the same location that I found the other lady’s ring in consecutive in-vehicle searches (one right after the other)?
Four, the lady’s ring that I had found two months earlier was completely different in design, shape, size and weight! Adam’s heirloom was chunkier, not petite nor slim like the simple platinum band that I had miraculously discovered in the Subaru Outback. Therefore, the pieces of metal would most likely react differently in terms of where and what they could possibly slide into or behind something in order to cause the object to disappear out of sight. Also, with the two rings being so completely different in every regard, the likelihood that both rings could wedge themselves under the same auto part and travel somewhat in the same general direction to ultimately be effectively hidden from their owners, has to be less than a 1% chance of this happening!
Five, the two rings that had been lost in the two owner’s vehicles had two completely different circumstances that led to the disappearance of both of those keepsakes! The lady was simply driving down the street and twirling her wedding band above the steering wheel as she commuted towards home. It dropped and disappeared. Adam threw his ring from the right front passenger seat and then six months later the vehicle is involved in a near death collision! These were two completely different scenarios!
As you just read, I think I made my point that it was nearly impossible that the first recovery location could be mirrored once again in this current search.
As I began to prepare my equipment to search the inner chamber of the fuel door / trunk release lever housing, I thought to myself, ‘I’m going to check this area out, but there’s no way that this ring could end up in the same location that I found that other one. Yet, I have nothing to lose’. I proceeded to take my endoscope snake and lifted up the fuel door release lever that was on the driver side floor in front of the seat (which is common in many vehicle models), and began to push the scope slowly and carefully into the plastic housing that covered the mechanism that controls the release of the trunk and the fuel door. As I viewed what was on my monitor screen, I began seeing more coins and a very interesting field of dust and debris scattered about in that little tiny section that was wedged between the carpet and the metal floor of the vehicle. I was extremely surprised at finding items in that very isolated space which normally I couldn’t even imagine how some of the objects could have ended up in that particular chamber. I observed on my monitor: a Bic cigarette lighter, a couple of quarters and pennies and a few other personal items that belonged to the driver that somehow ended up in that area.
When I reported to Adam that I had found a Bic cigarette lighter in that isolated region, he was perplexed by what I had found because he said that he didn’t even use Bic lighters. My client did indicate that the Camry was a pre-owned vehicle and perhaps the lighter had been jammed down in that narrow space prior to him possessing the car. What really intrigued me about the lighter was that this object somehow made its way into this very small cavity along with some of the other items I identified with the scope. I just couldn’t figure out how the objects traveled into and down that narrow space under the carpet. Of course, it would have to take some kind of dramatic impact such as a collision to allow for such miscellaneous debris to travel into that corridor of space around the mechanism that controlled the trunk and fuel door releases. However, it is important to remind the reader that because the ring had disappeared 6 months prior to the car accident, we have to conclude that some (if not all) of those miscellaneous items that I was observing had somehow already found their way into that narrow passageway before the collision had ever occurred.
As I observed more items that were buried below the carpet that appeared on my screen, the more I actually began getting encouraged that perhaps there was a slight chance that maybe Adam’s piece of gold was also mixed up in all of that “under-carpet” clutter, as well! If all of those objects had somehow made their way down into that chamber, who was to say that the ring couldn’t have found its resting place back there as well? I thought to myself that if a cigarette lighter, large coins and even an unopened chewing gum package could all make their way to that very isolated environment, why couldn’t a men’s chunky gold diamond ring be possibly hiding in that same region?!
With much determination to cover every millimeter in that confined space between the carpet and the metal frame of the floor, I maneuvered my endoscope back-and-forth and searched around that congested debris field. More miscellaneous objects began to show up as I twisted the cable around to observe as much as I could. Then, something amazing took place. Just as I pushed the long snake camera lens further into the dark pathway below some type of floor metal reinforcement bracket, my camera picked up something that became of great interest to me. I didn’t want to get overly excited but while I was scanning one particular angle inside that chamber that I had been working with, I saw what appeared to be a circular shaped object that resembled a yellow gold ring. At first I could only catch a portion of that particular target. However, as I was able to maneuver the snake in a particular way with a new technique that I hadn’t tried before, I was able to catch a couple of more new angles of that particular object.
The closer I got to this very curious item with the endoscope, the more my heart raced faster and faster! Just as the lens was able to bring the target of interest into clear focus, it was at that very moment that I was able to finally identify what appeared to be some type of jewelry. It turned out to be much better than just any piece of jewelry indeed! Instead, to my greatest surprise and shock, the endoscope lens and monitor allowed me to view for the first time…Adam’s late father’s yellow gold diamond ring! I could not believe what I was looking at and where this amazing family heirloom had been hiding all along!
I must share with my reader just how blown away I was upon seeing what turned up on the screen! As my eyes were laser focused on the monitor that clearly identified the amazing gold diamond ring, I felt an uncontrollable charge of emotion just shoot through my entire being! I did it! I actually did it! I had found Adam’s lost diamond ring! Because it was so over-the-top crazy as to where I had located the missing-in-action sentimental keepsake (as well as discovering the ring at the last possible notch on the clock of time), the whole experience seemed too surreal to be a true reality! This recovery was absolutely incredible! I wholeheartedly believed at that very moment that our earlier prayer of petitioning the Lord for divine help had truly come to fruition and that my Heavenly Father had most definitely favored me and blessed Adam with this fantastic find!
I was not about to wait to surprise Adam by trying to extract the ring before revealing the incredible news with him! No way! First, I laid down my endoscope (which was still inside the housing piece that I had been working through to gain access to what I eventually found). Then, I quickly rose to my feet and went straight towards Adam to blow his mind with the news of what I had just viewed on my video device!
“Adam, you are not going to believe this, but I just found your missing ring! I did it, Adam, I found your ring! I’m not kidding!” He looked at me as if he was in some kind of trance upon hearing the unbelievable news! He was trying to process the whole surreal statement that I had just shared with him! Because it was all too crazy that I would find the jewel in the place that I discovered it and that the timing of when I had found it seemed impossible as well (being the final spot to check) Adam was somewhat thinking that the incredible update that I had so excitedly given him was just a big farce! He too could not believe what was happening! It was quite hard to grasp the truth that where I claimed that I saw his ring was actually an accurate account of what was taking place. I immediately brought my bewildered client over to view what I had discovered and within a minute or two of regaining the spot that I had positioned the camera initially, both of our set of eyes were seeing the evidence of my fantastic claim that I had found the ring!
At that moment, Adam just lost it! He walked around like as if he was in a trance! We hugged and high-fived one another repeatedly and truly took in the moment of elation because of how outrageous this discovery was! I had found the ring approximately one foot away from the entrance to the fuel door and trunk lever housing entrance. After putting the endoscope in, I had to push it approximately 12 inches towards the driver seat underneath the carpeting along the metal flooring. Somehow, the piece of gold with its huge diamond inserted within it, traveled down into that housing and made its way through that narrow cavity until it came to rest amongst the cluttered debris field of miscellaneous items that had congregated under the seat.
Perhaps the impact that took place in the accident caused the diamond ring to travel farther back towards the driver seat underneath the carpet until it finally could not travel anymore because of all the other objects that got wedged together in that space. It was absolutely incredible! And even more crazy that I found this ring in the same general location as the one I found just a month and a half earlier, but in a Subaru Outback in Alexandria, Virginia! The odds of this happening were completely impossible! Yet, with my experience with ring finding, the stories get more bizarre the longer you do these types of searches!
After Adam and I had finally settled down a bit from our surreal pre-victory celebration, my next step was to use a special hook at the end of the endoscope in order for me to capture the target and set the ring free from that narrow cavity underneath the carpeting. This was not a procedure that allowed me in any way to simply put my hand or fingers into that long thin space. There was no way to access this particular chamber except to use this particular tool at the end of the video camera snake in order for me to carefully grab a hold of the gold and slowly bring it out from the far back section underneath the carpet.
After a few minutes of working the snake and the newly screwed-in hook tool at the end of it, I am proud to say that I was finally able to successfully extract the amazing gold diamond ring from within the vehicle’s strange hidden chamber! As the piece of jewelry made its way into the natural light from within the dark tunnel underneath the plastic housing, I just marveled at the beauty of that extremely handsome ring! Wow, it was really something special to look at! The diamond was beyond impressive in size, color and clarity! What was more special to me was the fact that I was holding what once was worn and owned by a man who truly loved Adam, his son, so very much!
At that moment, I found myself to be in more of a state of shock (as I held the precious gold) than the initial second when I identified the target with the endoscope! Here I was, holding the very ring that I thought had the most minimal chance of being recovered based on all of the facts mentioned above! I was so proud to be the very one to hand the ring to its rightful owner – the son who had inherited this sentimental treasure from his beloved daddy after he had regretfully passed away the year earlier!
Adam still could not believe what was happening! As I handed him the ring he just broke down with uncontrollable emotion and thanked me profusely for what I had just done for him! Right there at that very spot in the body shop parking lot (where all of those destroyed automobiles surrounded Adam’s mangled up vehicle) we rejoiced before the Lord and together we thanked God for answering the prayer that we had lifted up to Him earlier on! It was as if that place where we gave glory to the Lord together became almost like holy ground to us! The tragic events that had taken place prior to me arriving were finally being put to rest. That chapter was done and gone forever! The weight of sadness and even the suspicions that had haunted Adam for so very long no longer had power over his mind and heart and the man could now be free to move his life forward again! Furthermore, Adam’s destroyed Camry could finally be given up to the boneyard and eventually be taken to the crusher – and thankfully without Adam’s beloved heirloom that was once lost within its members! It was saved just in the nick of time!
Adam burst out with words of pure thankfulness and gratitude, “Brian, I can’t thank you enough! What you just did is unbelievable! You are the man! I told you that I had this feeling that if anybody could do it, you would be the one! You were my last hope and you did it and delivered my ring back to me! I’ll never forget this man!”
I thanked Adam for his kind words and confidence that he had in me and I told him that this truly was not only one of the craziest recovery stories that I had ever experienced, but that I believed God Himself had His hand in all of this! There was only a very tiny possibility that that ring was still in the vehicle (knowing how much of the car had already been razed). After what had been done to the dashboard and all of the other places that were searched by the two of us where we came up empty handed – and then to find it basically in the same spot that I had found the last in-vehicle ring…you just can’t make this kind of story up! You have to believe that there was some type of divine intervention here! The whole story was truly incredible!
Once we finished some more hugging and high-fiving, Adam took a victory walk into the body shop office to show the staff what I had just pulled from the vehicle! They too were in unbelief and completely shocked at what they were looking at on Adam’s finger! Many of them were witnesses, watching Adam cut holes and demolish what was left of his poor vehicle as he desperately searched to find his family treasure! The body shop staff also knew that the Camry would be removed from the lot in the next day or two, so for me to have actually recovered the jewel from the wreckage just prior to “dooms day” for that Toyota was pretty amazing to them! They couldn’t believe the outcome just as much as the two of us could not fully process the reality of what had just taken place! Knowing that the keepsake had actually been hiding in the vehicle all along, just the likelihood that the family heirloom would be discovered in that short window of time was still incomprehensible! The staff admitted to me that none of them had any confidence in believing that Adam would ever see that ring again and most of them doubted that the ring was even in the car at all! I again gave credit to my God for blessing the search and showing favor on Adam’s life!
When I eventually left the search site following our final goodbyes to one another, in some way we both felt bonded forever in a certain sense because of what we both experienced together. It was just one of those stories that was so amazing, so emotional, so exciting for the two of us that unless you were there in person and went through those special moments with us, it would be very hard to understand what we took away from that body shop parking lot that winter afternoon! Living that very moment when I knew for certain that I had identified the ring and then our reactions that followed (knowing that I had indeed discovered the lost family jewel), no one can ever take away that special memory and the endless feelings of elation that rushed through the two of us! Little could ever top that special time together!
Since that cold wintry day in Winchester, Virginia when I was able to recover and return that very sentimental gold diamond ring back to Adam’s finger, the two of us have enjoyed numerous talks on the phone together. Every so often we recount the story of finding Adam’s father’s ring in that wrecked Camry and we still agree without doubt…God truly favored us that day and has continuously reminded us thereafter of His unconditional love through what He did for Adam and for myself that one afternoon! I will never forget it…ever!
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